So, my book really is trying to do that at a large scale and it’s looking at how this pertains across the entire understanding of AI as a system that is extractive. Don’t do this with the kids, because God gave you the gift to play football. I think it’s really important to not be afraid of failure and to push yourself to try things and jump in the cold water.”, “I’m doing things more personally than ever before because that’s what my project is based on, that’s who I am and I have never been this happy my whole life — but it was a long road to get here.”, “Sometimes when you lose faith and you understand that something will never be possible the way that you dreamed, but you keep trying, suddenly one thing flips and everything re-accommodates. My goal has never been to look at things and tell people that they should be afraid of them. I chose to do things that I embrace, that I feel passionate about for whatever reason and I create my freedom around that.”, “I work till the breath goes out of me, and that might be at one or two or even four or five (in the afternoon). And of course, it can't. Everybody is impacted. But that is a perspective that requires a lot of work. And because images as so multi-chromatic, and can mean so many things, it's an extraordinary kind of hubris that we have systems that they claim can detect not just how we're feeling, but also our worth as employees, or as artists or, you know, you name it. What are the things that this moment is forcing us to urgently reassess and really underlining how serious it is? KC: I know, it's lovely. I think historically we think about the term “surveillance” in terms of like, surveillance cameras or police. This is it. 8:41 am. A lot of it is simply learning about whether or not you can even make an artwork in the first place. It’s the risk factor that, weirdly, keeps you feeling safe. Through years of research, I've been tracking the very material substrates of AI, everything from where the systems are built, where we extract the minerals from, through to what it takes to actually make them work in terms of labor and data extraction. And then in the 2000s, obviously there was 9/11 and the War on Terror, and the signature institutions of that turned out to be prisons: Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, the secret CIA prisons around the world… During that time I was thinking a lot about secrecy and prisons because that’s really a crucial part of the architecture of that moment in time, at least from the American perspective. We all see those glimpses of different kinds of maybe...solidarities that are emerging or different forms of care that are able to happen in times of crisis, because things kind of get thrown up in the air and people have to invent new rules or new ways of living together. Then this idea became so prevalent in psychology, even though it was deeply disputed. I know you're finishing up a book and I imagine the meaning of that is changing as well. What do the movements of their face look like?’ And I'm wondering the extent to which the fact that we've been forced onto these online platforms represents not only a consolidation of power in terms of the economic sector, but in terms of the kinds of values that are built into those infrastructures and the ethics that are built into those. That’s why I now have this tattoo that says “Carpe Diem.” That’s what we should live by!”, “I think my photographic career has been one of growing, learning, experimenting and trying different things. Find your style and stick to it.”, “Part of being a designer is to fail every day, to try things that don’t work out. So for example, when I was looking for those undersea cables for and trying to imagine that body of work, I didn’t even know if it was possible! From now on, you must be this example.’”, “I just want to do everything as good as I possibly can but it is also good to act on an idea and fail — and then you get something out of it. It’s always a progression, it’s about challenging the idea of what photography is.”, “I think the final circle in being an artist is connecting, making some conversation to the world you’re in. This is quite the technical marvel that we're engaged in right now. And, certainly, one of the projects that gives you a sense of where the book begins is a project that I did with Vladan Joler, which is called Anatomy of an AI System. But yeah, northern Italy, it's really messed up. Also watchable on Livestream! What is that encroachment, as well? Oh, hi friends!. It's just really weird to be an artist right now, because all of these images that you work with in the language that you have, the meaning is changing really quickly. I mean, he was not trained as an anthropologist, but going up into the hinterlands of Papua New Guinea and taking these pictures of people making cartoonish expressions and then showing them to tribes who had lived remotely and hadn't been exposed to modern media to see if he could get reactions. He is … But at the same time, it’s really a good thing finding this treasure because I’ve already mortgaged it, I’ve already sold the treasure in order to pay to put yourself in that position to see it. KC: I think that's right. And then where they end up, which is generally in massive e-waste tips in places like Ghana and Pakistan. And I think one of the things that we have talked about, and we wrote about this a little bit, we wrote an article together called “Excavating AI,” which was trying to look at the politics of the images that are used to train AI systems. Don't worry about me, always keeping busy. I've worked for many, many years so I'm really enjoying that my hard work has paid off… I think you should know your worth!”, “Having come out as a gay man and the self-confidence that gives you is huge! And his first attempt at doing this was a complete failure, but he kept developing it. It's 22,000 categories and 14 million images. In a complex body of work that encompasses sculpture, photography, drawings and digital practices like facial recognition technology and AI, Trevor Paglen interrogates the systems that underpin today’s society. So, trying to think about: Can you locate something like artificial intelligence or computer vision within a history of photography that would begin with figures like Timothy O'Sullivan doing survey photographs from the Department of War in the 19th century, and then moving through someone like Muybridge, who starts as a landscape photographer, also working for the Department of War, photographing the Indian Wars, and then, of course, doing the famous motion studies? 3 October 2020. I was released of all that insecurity when I released myself from that fantasy and came to the conclusion that I could be happy making music regardless of whether I was successful or not.”, “I am less anxious to have a successful career. For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy page. Your search results: Paglen, Trevor Showing 1 - 20 results of 95 for search ' Paglen, Trevor ' , query time: 1.14s Narrow search Results per page 10 20 50 There’s no reason we can’t.”, “I give my best performances when I am almost snapping. I mean, there's so much of that happening in New York right now, but also around the world. If you take on anything, you try to do it your best.”, “I think you know when you’re playing it safe, when you’re stagnating, and when you’re growing. And the visualization basically shows you the full life cycle, that sort of birth, life, and death of a single Amazon Echo unit.. And to make one of these Echo units involves a vast logistical chain, so we traced that. But if I don’t fail, then I’ll be in a great movie. Juni bis 30. TP: I definitely have plenty of stuff to do here. And now, of course, France is in a recession and you wouldn't be able to fly there if you wanted to. Trevor Paglen is a photographer whose work deliberately blurs the lines between science, contemporary art, journalism, and other disciplines to construct unfamiliar… Trevor Paglen, Talk… I mean, we should explain to people about how affect recognition works. TP: Well, nowadays I work with this guy named Barret Oliver, who specializes in this. Mr. Paglen, your art deals with the dark themes of mass surveillance, data collection, and state secrecy. And he's a really interesting guy. Inspirational Conversations. How are you doing? I was born like that, in fact, if I see too much of something, I change it. And I think that's the thing that worries me most about this moment in terms of the technical back end. And everybody in computer science is like, ‘oh, it's so big, nobody can actually look at this.’ And I was like, ‘sure you can, 22,000 categories, that's, you know, a quarter the size of a book, but you can look at that in a day, for example, if you really stick to it.’ And you had been doing some of this as well. KC: And I couldn't agree more. It's like the process—like shooting with an 8x10 camera, taking that film, digitizing the film, running it through these computer vision systems, and then going back to a film output, and then making these contact prints using, you know, egg whites and silver nitrate and stuff like that. Space, the final frontier? Have any of your projects turned out to be impossible to finish? I mean, with all these planes grounded, with all of industry on hold, have you seen the air quality lately? But you’re always trying to hit it into the rafters, and damn the consequences if you don’t make it.”, “At what point do you feel you’ve achieved it and you can move on? So, it's a little bit less intense, you know? Art World ‘This Is the Project of a More Just World’: Trevor Paglen on Making Art That Shows Alternative Realities. I look forward to being 50 and I’m hoping that I’m as confident as some of the people that I look up to.”, “When I was younger I had these moments where I was surprising myself with my spontaneity, and I thought, ‘This is what you should be chasing.’ The cerebral part of acting and the perfectionism can be exhausting, but the spontaneity can be very joyful.”, “I think the best you can do for yourself is let your subconscious drive you, instead of doing things because you want to achieve some sort of glory.”, “I think you always have to have risk when you’re creating a piece of art. Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: A Man (Corpus: The Humans), 2017 Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: Porn (Corpus: The Humans), 2017 Adversarially Evolved Hallucination: Vampire (Corpus: Monsters of Capitalism), 2017 Dye-sublimation metal print each 121,9 x 152,4 cm Courtesy of the artist and Metro Pictures, New York . 255 Trevor Paglen (geb. Only three years ago I was confident to start focusing on removing, and this is when I finally created a dish where I felt like I achieved what I tried to do for 23 years.”, “Life is confounding and who knows what’s around the next corner. To see the potential in something where there is no potential is often where art or creativity is a great tool. And the reason I have this, of course, is because I was going through the Australian fires just back in December, and it was so horrifying, and we couldn't breathe, and we were being evacuated. Facebook has ones that are bigger and better, but we can't see those. I try to learn at least one thing on every album, to reach out. But we believe in those kinds of dreams and so I keep investing, and reinvesting, and reinvesting.”, “I think my love of pushing the boundaries in film comes from my desire as a kid to do something artistic that would amaze people. So I don't know. You're talking about infrastructure, you're talking about geography, you're talking about classification, you're talking about geology even. I mean, the way, certainly here in the US, but also in Australia and in the UK, that universities have been relying on foreign student income to really prop up their budgets. And these are called training images. Trevor Paglen. There is an aspect of this surveillance capitalism that is about policing and about forms of state power but there’s many other aspects to it that are much more consequential aspects in terms of your every day life: if I’m Google, and I can track everything on your phone and I know that you go to a bar every night, am I going to sell that information to your insurance company? Trevor Paglen: “Your job is to learn how to see”. You won't see it, but these are systems that essentially are tracking your facial movements as you speak on video. This is kind of what an albumen print looks like. It's funny. You don't get that same sense of fear that you're starting to feel here now, or certainly that I'm starting to feel here now. And if you're listening right now, you could look it up on the internet, you'll be able to see a big visualization and an essay. TP: I mean, I think that's really real. There we go, done. Sitting on the edge of his seat, Paglen talks slightly reluctantly about his journey here. It was going to be all the full-sized models of the different kinds of satellites that we built over the years and we were supposed to go and install it, and I was like, ‘you know what, probably this feels sketchy.’ And then ‘no, it's okay, it's okay.’ And then, you know, a week later, it's like, ‘no, no way.’ And the space there, OGR, has actually recently been repurposed as a hospital. KC: Yeah, speaking of academia, it's really hard out there. In the future, you won’t pay a car insurance bill every month. National Tour. You're seeing a lot of these landscapes that are showing you the landscape, but then also the landscape as it is seen through different computer vision systems. And we have a lot of projects that are really relevant to this right now. That was a big journey for me! So it makes it difficult but it makes it possible to keep going.”, “I think you have to slow down a little bit. Name: Trevor Paglen. The artist talks to us about his artworks that reveal the “jaw-droppingly appalling” methods underpinning AI datasets, and why he’s turning the lens back on the public in his new exhibition. Work, work, work, work. I take care of myself so that I can survive. It freed me.”, “My work is integrated completely into my life and vice-versa – I’ve been working since I was sixteen and my work is my life and my life is my work. KC: And thank you, everyone, for joining in. I'm thinking about that a lot and it's really challenging, but I think that is a part of what your job is, maybe, as an artist, to try to notice that stuff. You know, if any of us had backyards in New York, we could totally do that. It is dangerous, but it is also sublime.”, “It’s important to say no – especially earlier in your career – because life is short and you want to be proud of things that you have done, not ashamed of them.”, “There is a thing called discipline. There isn’t a message as much as there is a way of seeing. Artist Talk | Trevor Paglen. But the good news, if there is any...I mean, there's two things I guess—one is that I have a bunch people, you know...it's not a bunch, there's a small handful of people that work for me and they all work in the studio in Berlin, and fortunately the German government has a program that's called Kurzarbeit, where if your hours are reduced the government will pay sixty percent of your salary. It's funny because I'm writing a book at the moment called Atlas of AI, and one of the chapters looks specifically at the close relationship between the AI industry and the state, specifically the military. Everybody I know who's in the art/artist side of things or on the gallery side of things, everybody's kind of screwed and nobody knows what's going to happen. I have a little bit of stage fright, which is super weird because I give talks all the time and all we're doing is sort of talking on the phone, but I am strangely nervous about this. I think you usually have to start thinking, ‘So what’s next?’”, “I think you get more confident as you get older. So, it's really real, and it’s really intense. TP: Hi there, I'm Trevor Paglen and I'm an artist. KC: Oh, yeah. Occupation: Artist. Are you here? In the same way that, for example, oxygen is a public resource. We have, what, eighteen million people out of work in America right now and most of those people have health insurance through their employers. And my film career took off once I came out.”, “Writing itself should be so extreme, so wild, and so much fun that it doesn’t matter whether or not you ever sell the book.”, “When you are at a crossroads, mistakes can help you decide the right way forward, and I think I really grew when I understood that I need to accept my mistakes.”, “It all comes down to realizing how good you are and really consciously working with that. Like, the other day I was at the beach just filming some stuff for this other project that I was thinking about, and I looked up and was seeing planes fly out of JFK and was like, oh, woah, airplanes. It's very alchemical and very material. TP: Yeah, one second, here, one second...Well these aren't works from the show. Right, and I think we should have the freedom to fuck up and make bad decisions and have bad ideas and not have your life be characterized by that. And I think one of the things that is certainly on my mind, and I think on a lot of artists’ minds, is related to that question—how many things that we think we understand the meaning of are just changing overnight? I've been thinking about that in relation to all these Zoom calls and Hangouts and all these technical systems that we're using right now to communicate with each other. And it's interesting because, of course...somebody has just said in the comments: who gets to decide what those images mean and are we seeing new forms of bias propagate? It's just that overnight everybody is losing their jobs in a lot of cases, because nobody knows when projects are going to start coming up again or whether there's going to be income. You will always find something new to go after.”, “I have a tattoo that goes around my right wrist that looks like barbed wire, but it’s actually ANDAND linked together, which stands for “A New Dawn, A New Day.” It’s about waking up every day knowing that you have a chance to start again and forgive and be forgiven and to let go of yesterday.”, “It’s a huge peace to allow yourself to be vulnerable. How do you feel when you finally get to see a completed piece after all that? In a way, every project fails every day until it succeeds! The interdisciplinary practice of Trevor Paglen brings us ever-closer to this question’s elusive answer. And this will be happening in many different aspects of your life. Interviews with figures from pop culture: fashion, film, art, music. Everything is learning by doing.”, “I think when you’re an artist who’s been around for a while like I have you understand that it’s almost impossible to make work that is unanimously loved or understood! There were times when I was anxious — even in the past, people said, ‘You make successful films.’ But my films were never successful. Orbital Reflectors is a good example of that; I worked on that for 10 years. However, it's not a great leveler in any way. Seitdem hat er einen Lehrauftrag an der University of California. And I'm delighted to be having this conversation with my friend and collaborator, Trevor Paglen. I also think it's incredibly dangerous that we're assuming that people under enormous stress and duress are somehow able to be doing six hours of Zoom calls a day, which is personally what I'm doing now and it's driving me crazy. And I'm imagining this is something that you're thinking about a lot right now as we're seeing governments wanting to track everybody's cell phones and things like that, in the name of public health. KC: Can I can I make a crazy suggestion? When you visit the-talks.com, The Talks uses cookies in order ensure the proper functionality of the site and to analyze our traffic. Again, it’s this giant, almost hangar-like space. But do you want to talk a little bit about ImageNet Roulette and what the motivation was behind that project? KC: Tell us a little bit about the shows that you had coming up that are now maybe not happening. Trevor Paglen: From ‘Apple’ to ‘Anomaly’ Installation view, The Curve, Barbican, 26 September 2019 – 16 February 2020 © Tim P. Whitby / Getty Images. It's interesting, because of course that book was going to be coming out this year in September and now it won't be thanks to, of course, what’s happening to the publishing industry. But I think what's even more interesting when you go down through the layers of how technical systems are constructed, is that ultimate question of who decides? I think you're in New York, too, now, right? You can only learn stuff and you can only do something new if you can fail while you’re doing it. To me it seems like that and the way we talk about that in some of the Paris stuff as well. TP: Aww, beautiful! Where do you do that? Just like what you're talking about in the art world, the same is happening across publishing as well. It is a different place, you know. So, when we start imagining the new future that we want to come on the other side of this, can we please have fewer Zoom calls? And I use that stamina now as an actress because it’s normally quite uncomfortable to make films.”, “I never have been into trends. Like the old phrenology drawings. That process of learning is actually very real and there’s a lot of work that goes into that. You have to respect people, be a good person. I thought it was more like a monastic practice. And of course, those eviction maps are going to be looking really scary a couple months from now in the US. Even The Godfather got a terrible review. Nach einem religionswissenschaftlichen Studium und einem in Komposition an der University of California, Berkeley und einem Kunst- und Technologiestudium an der School of Art in Chicago promovierte Paglen 2008 in Geografie mit dem Schwerpunkt Neue Medien. TP: Yeah. We were talking about it a lot and we found there's about 2,800-something categories of people. Do you have any printed works that you could show on screen? What are communities and nations and places that have functioning social services in place, and which don't? And of course that will accumulate, so that will have long term implications as well. The Artist’s Forum is a space for assembly and discussion of the role of contemporary art in society and of the themes and issues raised by the work … Of went online, but we can ’ t do this with the creative of! Make the world the drive is to learn how to see you, but these are kind of data. 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